My husband has heart failure and dementia and I have failing vision and complications from TBI and a recent stroke. We got a POA to take over her checking account approx 2 years ago due to a nephew who stole large sums from her bank account and used her name to open numerous credit cards and loans. The bank manager told us she refused to press charges. A neighbor called APS, who told us she could no longer live alone. We tried to have her placed in nursing home, but could not afford the 8,000 month cost. We moved to another city in MS, in hopes of finding a less expensive non-profit nursing home which would accept her. She has been placed on waiting list..in meantime she has been increasingly angier and hostile towards us, as she did not want to live with us, wanted to go live on her own. She has run away and reaches highway. We cannot control her. She has injured my husband by slamming a door on his hand and biting him, and kicks and pulls my hair, scratches with her nails, which she chews on and are ragged, yet she refuses to file/smooth them or let anyone else do so. Our health has deteriorated more since her stay with us. After she fell and broke her hip she was sent to rehab who discharged her because they did not use chemical restraint, and sent her to nearby hospital which did. Two nursing homes refused her due to behavioral issues and also because she was refused medicaid because she refused to press charges against the nephew. I was told to come get her. I told them no, that I could no longer care for her due to recent stroke , worsening vision and concerns re my husbands worsening heart condition and dementia. The social worker at hospital called few days later a saying they found a nursing home for her, and for me to come get ger and take her there. It is the first home which rejected her. I refused to come, as I was told she was penalized, and the nursing home called and asked me how long penalty phase was. I had called medicare and medicaid ro find out, but no one will return my calls. I cannot and will not go bring her back to our home. I will not sign any papers they are requesting I sign. Her other nephew refuses also. I am struggling to care for my husband and myself at this point. I hope someone reading this can help. We cannot afford legal help.
Yes, agree.
'I was told to come get her".
The hospital may want to move this patient along & aim for family to supply transport if possible. For a few reasons.
1. Escorted transport (eg non-emergency ambulance) costs the hospital money.
2. The hospital may struggle to get the patient to agree to transfer out - unless the patient willingly leaves with family.
Currently the hospital has Duty of Care. If family collect, then Duty of Care transfers onto family.
What happens AFTER patient discharged to family won't concern the hospital. Patient won't get out of the car at the NH, absconds etc. Not their problem.
But family transport is not always practical or suitable eg
- unsafe behaviours of patient
- family health issues
- family have caregiving committments.
You have all that!
So if you can't - you can't.
Keep polite but firm.
Please, please stick to your guns. DO NOT go pick her up. APS is sending you an idle threat, if it ever (it won't) got to court, you would vigorously defend yourself and no reasonable judge will see that you are capable of taking on her care. The SW at the hospital was trying to stick you, if that happens again, the SW tells you to pick her up and bring her to a NH that has accepted her, you tell them to send her there by ambulance. As Bounce said, you might want to resign your POA, but regardless, if there is too much involved with that, just keep saying no and don't be frightened by threats from so called authorities who should be there to help you in situations like this.
If YOU are POA, I'd report the theft to the police, regardless of what dementia sis wants. Having the theft documented by the police is a requirement for Medicaid to move past the penalty.
Do not transport a person with dementia ANYWHERE on your own, especially one as unpredictable as your sister.
"It is no longer safe for my sister to be cared for at home. She is a danger to herself (wandering) and others (documented attacks)".
You tell the hospital that you cannot and will not move her into your home and that she is an unsafe discharge and cannot live back at her place.
The part about not being able to afford a nursing home is nonsense though. If her income is low enough Medicaid pays for it. If she has assets like real estate and bank accounts, those things will have to be liquidated and spent down paying for her care before Medicaid starts picking up the tab.
DO NOT for any reason transport your SIL yourself. Social workers lie all the time. They want her out of the hospital. Once she is out their door she is no longer their responsibility. She is as long as she's under their roof. Once she's in your car, you're it as they say.
Tell this social worker that she will have to have her transported to the NH by ambulance because you're not able.
When the hospital wants her out bad enough they will find her a facility and get her there. Don't you do it.
You're wise not to sigh anything either. Never sign any document involving a nursing home that you have not read carefully or had a lawyer look over.
Lawyers are often made POA, and I can assure you that they don’t personally pick up people from hospital. This is a particularly nasty piece of illegal pressure, and needs calling out. Margaret
APS is blowing smoke out of their a$$. They're making threats because they don't want to have to do their actual job and find a facility to take the SIL. So they're trying to scare the OP into taking care of her.
I had a visiting nurse threaten me once with APS because I went out for a cigarette (I smoked in those days) while the client was asleep. She saw me outside the porch and completely flipped out.
I explained that I wasn't a security guard. Then I handed her the phone, asked if she wanted me to dial the number for her, and ended by telling her in no uncertain terms to 'something'-off. She did nothing and reported to no one.
No one called APS or anyone else. They like to make threats, but rarely does anyone (APS included) take any action.
Doing something about a situation would mean doing some actual work. The visiting nurses who stop in for five minutes or APS social workers are perfectly happy to never do any work and to leave all of the responsibility up to a family or whatever homecare aide gets put on the assignment.
This has been my personal experience with APS and visiting nurses. There have been a few exceptions, maybe eight or ten, over the last 25 years that actually did their jobs.
They will always be generous with the patronizing and threating of family members and support staff though.
In a nutshell, they're really nothing to worry about.
Then I would tell them that it is an UNSAFE DISCHARGE because you DO NOT have the ability to provide the level of care your sister in law requires. Period!
They are full of crap telling you that you have to transport her, EVERY facility will pick up a resident that they have accepted. Call her on that lie and ask if that's part of her training or is that her brain child.
Stand firm, every single person faced with this situation has been lied to by a supposed social worker. They wouldn't be threatening you if they could actually cause you problems, they would just contact the authorities.
Your principle is no longer competent.
You seem totally unable to manage this legal financial fiduciary duty under the law.
You need to resign.
And, sorry, but because she is no longer seemingly comptent, you NEED AN ATTORNEY, so if that means other bills go unpaid, you go on beans and rice for a while, is fine.
In normal circumstances you would already have placed SIL and been responsible for her finances, so your POA attorney needs would be paid by Sister's income.
But in all this mess that's likely impossible.
You are now legally responsible for a person you can't control.
She needs State guardianship.
Because SIL is apparently suffering dementia she is out of control and needs placement. From your note to us it is pretty clear to me that you are NOT going to be able to accomplish all of that. Ask APS to assign you in resignation and tell them you are unable to perform as POA. They may be able to help you do this legally WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY. Worth a try. A legal letter means you give up being POA in any way and request state guardianship of SIL. You are then no longer responsible, nor do you have any power at all over her placement, funds. Let any and all banks, other entities know that you are no longer POA.
When my Mom was in a NH she was sent to the hospital. When she was discharged I took her back to the NH only to be told they would not except her back. She needed to be transported by a transport. No one told us this. We returned back to the hospital and was told we needed to sit in the waiting room until they got a transport that would take an hr. It was 11pm. The NH called and said to bring Mom back. The shift supervisor took pitty on us and called her boss who gave the OK for us to bring her back. I am saying this because u may get Sis to the NH and be turned away. Then ur stuck with her.
Stick by your guns. You can no longer be responsible for Sis. The SW is going to have to handle the situation. Thats their job.
Meanwhile NO ONE can force anyone to pick up anyone.
If they are threatened with a suit they should respond "Please, do go for it; my easiest way to resign before the court as POA which I cannot manage for this person".
Good advice. Thank you.
What an awful situation to be placed in! You shouldn’t have to transport her. I would absolutely refuse to do this no matter how much they threaten you. They can transport her to the facility.
Are you going to continue to be her POA?
If she doesn't have this documentation, there is no threat (as I believe).
Still, as others say here (and I did to), find a low-income attorney or organization to provide legal advice.
"If" you signed her into a hospital or facility, then you need to get your name off those records. If you cannot do that by yourself, you need an attorney.
I do not know what legal authority / responsibilities you have / signed to take on..
LOW INCOME ATTORNEY SERVICES______________________________
There are low income attorney resources available (individuals or organizations).
(1) Check your county. (2) Contact your County's Government / Senior Services and ask for legal aid referrals. (3) Google "low-income attorneys in your county."
You indicate you / she (?) 'got' a POA two years ago.
Who is this person and what is their current responsibilities, legally?
Appears that she needs a conservative or be a ward of the state (if you / no one is taking legal responsibility of her).
If you signed her into the hospital, legally you 'likely' took responsibility for her welfare. Read what you signed, if you signed a document admitting her.
At the very least, she might do better with medication to control her anxiety, depression, behavior. Someone needs to contact her MD to discuss.
Gena / Touch Matters
Please don't believe some of the posts on here about APS not taking this seriously or working with law enforcement. Please don't take legal advice from anyone other than an attorney. I can tell you law enforcement works closely with APS here in New York.
https://brookdale.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/APS-and-the-Police-A-Partnership-to-Protect-Vulnerable-Adults.pdf
But they cannot on their own swoop in if you don't pick mama up at the nursing home and you are her POA. They will investigate.
If APS finds ANY problems (and there certainly may well be some here) then this will become a notification that there will be a court hearing.
In that court hearing the POA will be responsible to report all their actions, answer for their actions, and more, have a record of every single penny into and out of the person's accounts in any way.
POA doesn't allow one to "take over accounts" as this OP says. POA allows one to write checks for the principle as directed by them or in their best interest. And this must be kept carefully accounted for.
It is not APS that will judge this person, but a court. It is not APS that will appoint a State Appointed Guardian if required; it is the court and they will choose the fiduciary.
About one thing you are ABSOLUTELY correct. This person need the advice of an attorney, and now.
Whatever is happening her sounds like a royal mess. As a bunch of folks out here cooking Thanksgiving dinner, all of whom have divergent opinions, we are the last ones to go to for advice when the authorities (And APS is a branch of all that) appear. THis is a legal issue and the OP needs all ducks lined up in a row, accounted for, and in black and white, with proof, on paper.
95% of the time, a CERTIFIED ELDER CARE ATTORNEY will offer you a free consultation, as mine did for me.
Best of luck.
This is too cute.
Some of our threads are currently going so long and out of control I can't even remember the subject. This is adding to my 81 year old confusion, and already at least ONE Forum member has suggested to me that I get my head examined!
You are right and I want to echo it. CannotContinue: Get thee to an elder law attorney ASAP. Trust NO ONE. Do not pass GO. Do not collect 200.00 (or any other amount of money. SEE AN ATTORNEY now.
I'm sorry, I'm angered by some of the recent posts by some newcomers here. A lot of misinformation that may unnecessarily frighten OP. What OP needs to do is calmly meet with the hospital social worker and/or APS social worker and calmly state that it is a dangerous situation at home for all parties, SIL, herself and her husband. Having SIL at home would put everyone at risk. It is not safe and it cannot happen. Period. It would be a violation of the SW's ethical standards to place SIL at home.
Social Workers' Ethical Responsibilities to Clients
I tried to link, it didn't work, but some of you may want to search and read what a social workers ethical responsibilities are. And one of them is NOT scaring sick family members who cannot adequately care for someone.
As far as the nephew stealing money, nobody can do anything about that unless the SIL wants to press charges. No prosecutor touches those cases because they don't succeed without the full cooperation of the victim.
Anyway, I'm done, OP if you are still following this thread, please don't be frightened by some of the nonsense you see here, please stick to your guns and look out for the health of yourself and your husband.
Here, it seemed the Sister-in-Law was not permanently living with the OP & Husband - had a period of unstable housing, on her own, moving states, between rehab, hospital & NH.
I've never seen a 'dumped' person or 'found' from the street forced back to live with relatives if the realives said no. The Social Worker works to find a safe discharge plan. This can lead to pressure to return to their precious abode, maybe with more services added. But I have never heard anyone sued if they refused.
Here, the OP has been asked/told to collect SIL - not to take bacj to her home but to provide transport to the next NH.
I still maintain this is within the current facilitie's obligation.
The one post I read made a good point. What kind of POA does the OP have. Immediate or Springing where a doctor has to declare the person incompetent of making informed decisions to make it effective. If a Springing it may not be in effect but I don't think this is the case here. The problem here is the SW did find a NH but wanted the OP to transport. That is that problem. By transporting herself, she has taken on responsibility of SIL. I will bet when she got to the NH there would be problems and she would end up having to take SIL home with her. The SW IMO should have set up transportation to the NH from the hospital. There is a reason why she didn't.
The only relevant detail is whether OP is ACTING POA now for medical and financial for someone who is INCOMPETENT to act in her own behalf.
This would indicate responsibility under the law.
She can resign, but with an incompetent principle would have to do so legally with an attorney.
And JoAnn, I so agree with you. Something odd is happening on a lot of our posts lately, and they are often lengthy, repetitive and even argumentative regarding an OP who doesn't even participate, and who would be horrifically confused if he/she DID.
In truth I just looked at this post at the tops of the threads (where it can only remain with continuing comments) and thought "NOW WHAT" to come in and see you just addressed what I am feeling. I won't return to this post unless the OP returns.
I'm also wondering how your husband was able to be named as a POA if he had dementia--perhaps it was not yet evident 2 years ago? Also, if your SIL appeared to have dementia herself 2 years ago, she should not have been able to assign POA. Again, I'm wondering if it's possible that your responsibility for her is quite limited--which would be a good thing because you could be being asked/pushed/harrassed to do things for which you do not have responsibility. As others have said, we don't know! Your very next step needs to be making an appt with an attorney--many suggestions here on how to do this without funds--get your paperwork together, and get a better handle on your legal situation! Please let us know what happens. We really do care, and we are pushing you so you can get to a better place for you, your husband, and your SIL!
Hope this helps,
LIsa in Alabama
WHY our OP has moved on isn't really my business until she says so here, or returns with updates.
I disagree that "all discussions were important". And I doubt very much that our average OP here is so fragile that he/she cannot take the contrary opinion of one person amidst a swarm of well-wishers with good ideas.
Of late our threads--I have sometimes counted them-- have no OP returning to participate at all, while some of us go on endlessly on the question.
I once counted 7 LONG responses from one person out of a total of 19 responding posts.
I think this much wordiness without a participating OP becomes overwhelming. and unreadable to once and future readers.
Just my personal opinion. I imagine most others feel differently, and that's fine.
I will return to this post when our OP joins us again. I myself always love participation of our OPs on the threads.
I would not do anything with your SIL, I would take care of yourself that is the most important thing.
Prayers